I recommended families drive minivans on a BMW forum, and it went about how you would expect

"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein) 07/05/2017 at 17:34 • Filed to: None

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In response to !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! on BimmerPost where someone says his wife’s X5 has maxed out its kid hauling potential and they were considering a Cadillac Escalade, I did the unthinkable: suggest that minivans are the best family-hauling vehicles.

The original post ended,

If anyone has one of these would like to hear their opinion, what I should look out for, must have options, reliability, etc. Also how is the resale on these? Finally, if there is another car you might think would be better fit I’m open to suggestions except for a minivan , regardless really interested to hear from the Escalade crowd.

(emphasis mine)

The very first reply from someone who bought a long-wheelbase Escalade said this:

We ended up with the long bus, my wife wanted the smaller escalade until we went to the dealership with the crap we needed to haul, mainly the stroller that can fit 2 kids, it was an absolute no-go with the third row up.

My recommendation, get the long Escalade, make sure you get second row captains chairs, this is key. If you get a second row bench and you have car seats then the kid in the back row has to climb over the seat, or you have to remove a child seat just to access the third row. You also get a second screen in the ceiling of the longer Escalade.

So you mean, you and your family needed the kid and cargo carrying capacity of a minivan?

After several other posts talking about using full-size, truck-based SUVs as minivans, I chimed in:

A minivan is the way to go. I don’t care about the stigma, a minivan is much better to drive, much more practical for kid hauling duties, and much cheaper to fuel than a full-size SUV.

The only SUVs with more room are the Suburban, Yukon XL, and long-wheelbase versions of the Escalade, Expedition & Navigator. I’d much rather drive and fuel a minivan than a huge truck based SUV.

If however you and/or your wife have an irrational dislike of minivans then the best crossovers for hauling duties are the new 2018 Chevy Traverse & Buick Enclave. Honda Pilot and VW Atlas are also in the running.

But none of them beats a minivan.

Say what you will about BMW stereotypes, but well, your typical BMW enthusiast with a family is not having a minivan.

Reply #1:

the cost of 3 gallons of gas a week is a small price to pay for ones dignity and self respect.

Reply #2:

You ever see how miserable the guy behind the wheel looks driving one of those things? I’d rather walk.

Then someone suggested a Range Rover Sport, which doesn’t even have a 3rd row of seats.

I, being a genuine fan of minivans, and a little amused with the fierce anti-minivan sentiment, decided to poke some more:

The two of you are perfect examples of the irrational dislike of minivans I mentioned.

I personally am comfortable enough with myself that driving a minivan would not cause me to lose my dignity and self respect, or feel miserable. Quite the contrary: I would feel happy that I have the vehicle best suited to hauling around a family with 3+ kids.

Modern minivans are luxurious, efficient for the amount of people and stuff they can haul, and much easier to drive and park than a full size SUV that drives like a bus. Some of them even have built-in shop vacs for cleaning up after the kids. If I had 3+ kids, I would happily buy a minivan.

Clearly there are enough insecure people out there who are willing to pay a premium to drive a full size SUV because they’re too afraid to be seen driving a minivan.

What are you trying to hide? All driving a minivan says is “I have a bunch of kids.” You know what else says that? Walking around with your kids. Why is that something to be ashamed of?

So far the replies to that are:

#1:

Thats cool and the gang, man. I just prefer to buy and drive a full size SUV like a Tahoe, Suburban, Escalalde, Yukon, etc.......

#2:

Don’t care how practical a minivan may be. No one drives one because they want to. A vacuum in the cabin? Are you kidding? Who gives a F?

The majority of people who buy large body-on-frame SUVs (perhaps with the old “but I need to TOW THINGS” excuse to justify it vs. a minivan even though they don’t actually tow things) use them as minivans. They insist on the passenger and cargo carrying capability of a minivan but refuse to be seen driving a minivan. Because they think minivans make them look like dorks, or something.

A couple days ago, I saw a GMT900 Suburban with a very detailed stick figure family in the back window and 6SCHMTS vanity tag. I have news for you Schmidt family, you’re not doing a good job of hiding the fact that you are a family of 6, what with your stick figure family and vanity tag. But noooo, a minivan just won’t do, the Suburban is the only vehicle that will suffice for your needs, because it has the carrying capacity of a minivan but isn’t a minivan.

Don’t be the 6SCHMTS.

And remember, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

Brian, The Life of > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 17:38

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All you had to do was tell them the Chrysler Pacifica has the same skidpad performance as an e46 M3.

Captain of the Enterprise > Brian, The Life of 07/05/2017 at 17:41

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Is that actually true?

RallyWrench > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 17:42

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Tell them I sold my manual, sports package 325it to pay for a 12 year old Sienna and watch the blood boil. I like the Sienna, it’s faster, it has comfy seats and a good stereo, it makes my wife’s life easier, and it doesn’t break. I wish it had a vacuum in it, the carpets may as well be made of Cheerios and goldfish. No regrets.

jimz > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 17:43

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My sister and I grew up being carted around in a Plymouth Horizon and a ‘72 Duster. ‘course, this was back in the day when a infant car seat was little more than a padded plastic tub held down by the seat belt.

I just don’t get why parents think they need to haul around so much crap for their kids.

Brian, The Life of > Captain of the Enterprise 07/05/2017 at 17:44

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“FCA threw an independent rear suspension underneath the thing, so it will handle a corner without fear of tipping over. Actually, I was curious, so I did a bit of research about the Pacifica’s handling. When the folks over at Car and Driver put it on their skid pad, it ran 0.87 g while cornering.

Turns out that’s what a BMW E46 M3 from the early 2000s would do.”

For Sweden > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 17:46

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The’re good minivans

Also, if you need to tow something, be smart and buy a pickup with a gooseneck hitch.

Textured Soy Protein > jimz 07/05/2017 at 17:48

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My brother, sister and I grew up being carted around first in a loaded ’89 Ford Taurus wagon and then a ’96 Chrysler Town & Country LXi. At the time, 14 year-old me was very impressed with the Infinity 10-speaker stereo and actually spent a bunch of time going out to the garage with CDs to mess with it.

Jetstreamer > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 17:48

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Something something... overcompensating... something something... insecure manhood... something something status symbol...

For Sweden > Brian, The Life of 07/05/2017 at 17:48

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This reminds me of when we learned that with sport tires, the Lincoln MKZ beat an M5 though a slalom course. http://jalopnik.com/5969022/lincoln-tries-to-fool-media-with-super-car-tires

TheHondaBro > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 17:50

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A vacuum in the cabin? Are you kidding? Who gives a F?

And now we wait...

Textured Soy Protein > Brian, The Life of 07/05/2017 at 17:53

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With how much tires have improved since the E46 M3 was new, that’s not entirely surprising. But 0.87 g is still pretty good for a minivan.

Slap some modern max performance summer tires (not autocross style 200 treadwear ones) on an otherwise stock E46 M3 and I’m sure it would do a much higher number.

BeaterGT > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 17:54

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My sister and I grew up in the back of a 1988 K-5 Blazer. I’m not helping, am I?

DAWRX - The Herb Strikes Back > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 17:54

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Honestly big SUVs are becoming the new minivan. The newest most expensive SUVs I see on the road are usually driven by 30 something women with kids in tow. There are usually various school and kids league sports stickers on the back to confirm this.

Building off of the point you made, if the embarrassing thing about having a minivan is broadcasting “I have kids” then these 3 row crossovers and SUVs are just as embarrassing as minivans. They scream exactly the same thing to me since the same kind of people drive them. People with kids.

ttyymmnn > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 17:54

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When I found out that we were having twins to add to our first son, I thought about what sort of vehicle could comfortably hold 5 of us. At first, I didn’t want a minivan. But then I started thinking about 12-hour drives with three boys shoulder-to-shoulder on a bench seat (I didn’t want a giant SUV) and we ended up with an off-lease 2003 Odyssey. It’s been fantastic. We’ve made numerous trips from TX to the east coast, a swing out to San Diego and back via the Grand Canyon, and we’re leaving soon on another 3,000 mile trip to St. Louis and Chicago. We remove one of the two captain’s chairs in the middle to allow room for a cooler that we can get to without pulling over (sandwiches have been made on more than one occasion at 75 mph), plus lots of room for books and other sundries. And that’s just for trips. Loading everybody in for runs around town is simple, and having those huge sliding doors is awesome. Our Oddy is on its second engine and still going strong. I wouldn’t trade it, and the engine has just enough grunt to make it enjoyable to drive.

Ssfancyfresh > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 17:56

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I lost the minivan battle with my wife. We got a Tahoe. I hated it.

We just got back from a family road trip. Put 2000 miles on it. You sure can eat up a lot of highway in comfort. Fuel economy wasn’t bad either. The first 900 miles we averaged 24 mpg. 22 mpg once we were in the mountains.

We had 3 adults and 2 under 2. And a whole mess of cargo.

Tahoe is not so bad. And I get why people like them

boredalways > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 17:57

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Alternative suggestion: buy a Volvo wagon or Tesla Model S. Both offer 3 row seats and all wheel drive.

But one will make you look educated and the other will make you look like a douche with bad panel gaps.

Textured Soy Protein > DAWRX - The Herb Strikes Back 07/05/2017 at 17:58

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I think it comes down to people have kids but they want to feel young and cool and not anything like their parents, and they associate minivans with their lame parents.

Driving a minivan doesn’t make you lame, wearing dad jeans and Nike Air Monarchs (or their NB equivalents) makes you lame.

Brian, The Life of > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 17:58

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I’m sure you’re right. But still.

Wagonlife740 > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 18:00

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Fuck those guys! lol Everyone at my job has been mocking me lately, because I’ve been looking into a 2008 or 2009 Caravan. I have no family. I do like camping though. While I will always be a HUGE fan of wagons, so far this summer my camping gear has grown. My 740 squats quite a bit when its loaded all the way now, and I kind of want to buy a small teardrop camper. Who knows, I might not buy a minivan and just buy helper air bags for the wagon. Either way I would much rather be traveling in a minivan than a dumb SUV. Americans are scared shitless though, and that is why everyone drives them. I just talked to someone the other day that was in love with their Jetta TDI. She wished that the new Atlas came with diesel because while the Jetta has all the room she needs, the Atlas looks safer in the event of a crash. People seem to picture minivans and wagons being totaled in accidents but they always picture the truck based SUV coming out unharmed.

Mercedes Streeter > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 18:03

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*Sigh* This is still one of the many things I have absolute disdain for in our culture. Buy the biggest car the bank will let you have, obviously because a big car means you’re rich and attractive. A small car or a minivan means you failed in life.

Textured Soy Protein > Ssfancyfresh 07/05/2017 at 18:11

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Modern full-size SUVs do a decent minivan impression while being a truck that can tow things. Their length and width of the short-wheelbase ones isn’t that much more than a typical minivan. But they’re also like 6 inches taller and also weigh like 800-1000 lbs more than most minivans. While the highway cruise mileage can be pretty solid thanks to cylinder deactivation and modern transmissions, the in-town mileage is way worse. You’re much higher up from the ground and have a much harder time seeing your way into parking spaces, and other not-huge vehicles on the road. Minivans are still better at being minivans but they have an image problem so people buy large SUVs to use as minivans.

David Cole > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 18:13

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This is like saying why get a V-8 when a 4 cylinder will do? It’s about driving enjoyment. If you enjoy driving minivans then cool on you. Some people like to go big and think of a vehicle as more than just utility. Hence “sport” utility vehicles.

Textured Soy Protein > Wagonlife740 07/05/2017 at 18:16

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I think a lot of it comes down to people buy cars because of the image they will project. Similar to your experience with a minivan, I DD’d a Miata from 2004-2008 and caught all kinds of shit from my boring midwestern office dwelling coworkers for driving it, because of all the usual Miata stereotypes. Non-car people like to talk shit about people’s cars, a lot, especially when they feel like they have an easy target like a minivan, or Miata.

So people are like, “I don’t want Bill and Sue at work to trash me for driving a minivan, that would be like giving up, I’m going to buy a Tahoe.”

I’ve always been comfortable enough with myself that I don’t care about such things. Besides, I can deadlift more than those pansies and my wife has bigger boobs than theirs, and we all know those are the important things in life.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > For Sweden 07/05/2017 at 18:16

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I think you mean F-650 or Kodiak, you can never be too careful.

OPPOsaurus WRX > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 18:17

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Ford flex is the answer. Its a minivan without the sliding door. It handles better and doesn’t look like suck and still has all the hauling ability and with the ecoboost can haul ass too

promoted by the color red > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 18:20

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BMW owners being image-conscious!? Who would’ve guessed.

Textured Soy Protein > David Cole 07/05/2017 at 18:20

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I know all about making stupid vehicle choices in the name of driving enjoyment: I drive a 400+ hp modified BMW.

Judged on performance driving enjoyment measures like acceleration and handling, or judged on practical driving enjoyment measures like fitting in parking spaces, minivans are better than full size truck based SUVs.

The only thing more enjoyable about driving a full size truck based SUV instead of a minivan is the ability to be seen driving a vehicle that’s not a minivan, for people who are afraid to be seen driving a minivan.

Textured Soy Protein > OPPOsaurus WRX 07/05/2017 at 18:23

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I like the Flex EcoBoost but the third row and trunk aren’t nearly as big as a typical minivan.

Quadradeuce > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 18:26

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I’ve daily driven several minivans (4 maybe?) so I clearly don’t have an issue with the image. But I’ll never buy another. Crappiest cars I have ever owned, and I’ve owned a fiat! No mechanical issues but the interiors never held up.

We have two young kids, and many of our friends have minivans. All of them are pieces of crap. They all have weird failures, like failing door latches. In 2017.

So while the utility of a minivan makes sense, often they are built to a price point and the product suffers. So I don’t blame people for hating them.

Signed,

Recovering minivan driver.

Wagonlife740 > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 18:30

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Yes boobs.

Someone in my family (lol my grandfather) totally wanted a cheap little convertible, and asked for my advice. Needed to be good on gas, sporty but not a race car, a cheap used car, this guy was an older guy. I was like Miata, Miata, Miata! He took my advice, and test drove one for sale on craigslist. He told me it was a blast, it was just the car he needed. HE DID NOT BUY IT. Weeks later I saw him and asked him why he never bought that Miata, and he had no straight answer for me besides the fact that it wasn’t a Corvette. Now it has been like 5 or 6 years, and he still has never owned a convertible. He could never find a vette cheap enough, and is scared of the newest ones and now age is getting the best of him and he drives less and less each month. He basically just wanted to cross owning a convertible off his bucket list, and enjoy some great scenic drives. Well now its too late... Only because of the image he wanted to reflect. Could have had a blast.

He buys the latest and greatest pickup truck every 2 to 3 years though.

Textured Soy Protein > Quadradeuce 07/05/2017 at 18:32

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Are you talking about all brands or anything in particular? Chrysler for example is certainly known for being a crappy carmaker in all segments, not just minivans. All mainstream vehicles are built to a price point. Is a Honda Odyssey, for example, noticeably shittier than a Pilot with which it shares a platform? Sienna vs. Highlander? Sedona vs. Sorento?

Ssfancyfresh > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 18:33

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Oh, I get it. You could make the same rational arguments for anything though.

I drive a 2014 Audi A4. A contemporary Chevy Cruze had the same interior volume and offered many of the same features and options. It weighed less, got better fuel economy and didn’t require premium fuel. Neither vehicle would get me to work any faster or slower. I should have bought a Cruze. Actually, everyone should by a fucking Cruze because it’s all the car anyone needs.

Unless you got a bunch of kids and go on vacation with your mother-in-law. Then you get the Tahoe

David Baker > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 18:35

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Mr. Regular’s review on the TT echoes this exactly.

Textured Soy Protein > Ssfancyfresh 07/05/2017 at 18:42

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That’s not the same.

There are many things about an A4 that are objectively better than a Cruze. It’s faster, rides and handles better, and has nicer, more luxurious materials inside. The only thing the Cruze has in its favor in this comparison is fuel economy and price.

Minivans have many advantages over something like a Tahoe, other than fuel economy and price. Comparing a Tahoe vs. a Honda Odyssey, or even an awd Toyota Sienna for the folks in the snow belt, the minivans ride, handle and brake much better, they are easier to park and see out of, and while a 2wd V8 Tahoe is a bit faster in a straight line, it’s not hugely so. The minivans have much more versatile and reconfigurable seating and cargo areas, and are much easier to load being lower to the ground and having sliding doors.

Aside from the small acceleration advantage, the only things that are objectively better about a Tahoe vs. a comparably equipped minivan is the towing capacity, and that it’s not a minivan.

Captain of the Enterprise > Brian, The Life of 07/05/2017 at 18:43

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Wows that’s impressive and the perfect strange automotive fact for me to file away for future useless knowledge!

Svend > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 18:49

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I wouldn’t mind a 2 Series

Active Tourer

or

Grand Tourer

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > jimz 07/05/2017 at 19:11

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I remember those days, sort of. Somehow we got by with 3 kids in compact coupes. When the 4th was on the way, my parents acquired a 1970 VW T2 Transporter (VW Bus), which had seating for 9 and we often loaded with even more children.

I don’t get it, either. My wife is itching for our first kid and wants to get a freaking mid-sized SUV as her “mommy mobile”, which I think is totally ridiculous. You can easily transport even a couple kids in nearly any compact car. If you really want to do a road trip with a ton of crap, renting a minivan or SUV is possible.

When I mention minivans and wagons, she trips out. Her mom had a freaking Expedition for transporting her (only child) and the occasional friend or two when she was in middle school, and she’s obsessed with having some massive SUV as it’s a parenthood signal or something (as if a minivan or wagon isn’t; she didn’t even accept that a wagon is actually signalling not only parenthood, but that you have money, because poors drive SUVs). What I don’t think she realizes is how much it sucks driving such a car on a regular basis. Considering the way she drives her little Mazda 3, I’d think that she’d truly hate having to slow down for corners and brake really early because people are idiots.

Svart Smart, traded in his Smart > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 19:12

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You’re right that minivans are well suited to the task of hauling people and things, but I don’t see much use saying that to someone who has already ruled out a minivan (however irrational or erroneous his reasoning may be).

Ssfancyfresh > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 19:16

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It’s exactly the same.

There is no rational reason for me to drive the Audi. Except for AWD (which few people really need) the Cruze offers every feature available in the Audi. There is no rational reason to choose it over the Cruze. I like the way the Audi drives. I like the way it looks. But a Cruze satisfies all my requirements in a daily driver and all I would sacrifice by choosing it is brand cachet and maybe some performance. Neither of those affect my commute. I bought the A4 because I liked it more.

I wasn’t looking to go into a long defense of the Tahoe over the minivan. Like I said, I hated it. I wanted the van for all the reasons you mentioned. But I just put 2000 miles on a 2017 Tahoe: highway, city, crowded tourist attractions - we did it all. It was easy to drive, easy to park, has tons of luxury and safety features. In no way did I feel it’s size or performance was a burden. And the fuel economy was a complete surprise. Honestly, it’s more EXPENSIVE to go 100 miles in the A4 with premium fuel than to go the same distance in the Tahoe which uses regular. Tahoe eats more dinosaurs though, so I guess I feel bad about that

Look, I’m a minivan guy. I get it. But, it’s pretty silly to go into a BMW blog and get all high and mighty about people making irrational choices when your audience is BMW owners.

Textured Soy Protein > Svart Smart, traded in his Smart 07/05/2017 at 19:31

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Well yeah, but I did end my first post with saying if you just can’t come around to a minivan then a 3-row crossover is better than a truck based full size SUV. That wasn’t enough to prevent a minivan backlash though.

XJDano > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 19:35

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I would have gotten a suburban for towing, but I don’t really tow enough or have anything right now that requires towing. So we got a caravan. My wife loves it, and it’s whatever. If I already had a camper I would have gotten a suburban.

random001 > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 20:00

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We rent minivans for long trips. But we have two kids, and minimize the stuff we take, so the Crosstrek is fine.

I want a Montero, but I want to go over landing in a bad way, so a minivan is out. I DD an Abarth. No need for all that room, but if we end up with a third kid, we’ll go that route.

DrDDay > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 22:58

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I’m glad you like minivans.

I personally think they are piles of dog shit to drive and I would never own one unless I came upon hard times and I needed to be able to sleep comfortably inside my car for a long period of time. Even then I would probably buy something else that didn’t make me want to end my life every time I saw my makeshift home and realized how down on my luck my life has become.

On the bright side, there will always be one more minivan out there for you to buy because I will never be in the market for one.

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 23:26

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Minivans are the way to go. We replaced our Q7 with a new Pacifica after boy number three came along. They are very nice inside and the leather should hold up fine. Our Q7 interior was fine after 4 years of kid duty, so I don’t see any reason the pacifica will be any worse. The materials look and feel on par with our Audi. We have seen two Chrysler town and countries through our shop that both have over 200k miles on all original power train and they are still in good shape. Suspension parts have needed replacement, but all the power doors work and the interiors are still salvageable with a good detailing. That’s what sold me on even considering a Pacifica over the odyssey.

And yes, they still do the family hauling better than the big busses. I just wished audi made a minivan. Would have bought it in a heartbeat. Mercedes is bringing one out, but they weren’t available when we were looking. I think it’s a segment ripe for a luxury brand to step into. We will see what they offer with the Mercedes metris, to see if they have a chance. But honestly, with the limited trim level, you get most all of the luxury items, minus the badge. Only thing that I would really still like is awd. There are times when I have to feather the throttle to keep from spinning the front tires. But that can be solved with some stickier and wider meats as well.

I just got back from driving 8 of us up to Dave and busters for a birthday party, three kid seats in the 2nd row and three adults in the back, plus grandma up front riding shotgun. That thing hauls people so well. I’m always impressed. Yeah an escalade looks prettier, but I’ll do it better in my van for less than half the cost.  

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > Svart Smart, traded in his Smart 07/05/2017 at 23:27

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It’s fun to harass people who are too vain to be reasonable.

J-Blizzle > Textured Soy Protein 07/05/2017 at 23:38

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“Fitting in parking spaces” might be an issue in a large coastal city, but our Yukon XL is actually shorter than an extended cab shortbed truck, or a regular cab longbed. Here in the suburbs (where most people haul kids), the parking spots are plenty big. Also, the Yukon has much less road an wind noise than most vans I’ve driven, and the longer wheelbase and longer shock travel distances, I think it rides very well. Plus, the LT4 supercharger will bolt right on to the stock 6.2L L86 engine in the Denali, giving you over 600HP at the crank, provided you swap out the fuel pump. Mated to the 8 speed transmission and AWD transfer case, I don’t know any way of making a minivan that much fun to drive. I’ve got no problem with vans. In fact, we are purchasing a full size Mercedes Sprinter for cross-country trips. And I do agree that a minivan is a good option for lots of folks.

Textured Soy Protein > DrDDay 07/05/2017 at 23:40

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Minivans actually aren’t that bad to drive. They’re no worse than the fwd 3-row crossovers they often share platforms with. You know what drives worse than a minivan? A Cadillac Escalade being used as a minivan.

Textured Soy Protein > J-Blizzle 07/06/2017 at 00:51

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Oh spare me the “here in real Ammurrica, land of wide open parking spaces and V8 land yacht trucks” talk. I live in suburbia in Wisconsin and for the record I used to have a Hemi Grand Cherokee for my winter/utility vehicle. It was as big as I needed for hauling a bunch of cardboard boxes from online shopping to the dump, totally overkill for getting around town in winter, and sucked down mass quantities of gas, way more than a modern GM full size truck. But it was my second vehicle, got about 5k miles on it per year, and it’s nowhere even close to the size of a full size truck.

When it comes down to it, my point is simply this: bigass full size SUV trucks are fine at kid hauling, but they’re not as good as minivans, and they’re very often bought for no reason other than somebody needs minivan capability but refuses to buy a minivan because they don’t like the image it projects.

J-Blizzle > Textured Soy Protein 07/06/2017 at 02:45

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Why are you resorting to hyperbole? It’s not hard to park. You are complaining that people put down minivans, but as soon as someone defends why they drive a large SUV over your holy decree that minivans are better, you start putting down others’ choices, making you no better than the guys on the BMW forum you were originally complaining about.

Eggplant > Textured Soy Protein 07/06/2017 at 03:33

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I don’t know about now, but for a while, the Sienna smelled worse than the Highlander of the same vintage (like mid 2000s). Was never sure what it was exactly, but the Highlanders always had your standard “new car” smell, while the Siennas always had a slightly unpleasant smell. Maybe they used some other type of VOCs in the adhesives and plastics or whatever.

As for drivibility, neither was particularly engaging.

6691 zapS > Textured Soy Protein 07/06/2017 at 07:38

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Your use of adjectives is too ugly.

Oh spare me the “here in real Ammurrica, land of wide open parking spaces and V8 land yacht trucks” talk.

Quadradeuce > Textured Soy Protein 07/06/2017 at 10:01

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I’ve been in many minivans, and they were always sub par. The Japanese minivans are just as terrible as Chrysler’s or GM’s. Admittedly, I haven’t driven the current gen vans. My experience is from the 90s to about 2010. I did check out the Pacifica at this year’s auto show. It appeared much nicer, but with an average asking price of $36,068.00, they should be nice.

My sister has three kids, and they drive a Highlander and a Land cruiser, both 10 years old and 150k+ miles. Both are great family haulers and are holding up great. The sienna of the era would be noticeably shittier, and they would have gotten rid of it a long time ago. My nephews are hard on cars, and a sienna would have been nothing but dust in their hands.

I’m just telling you as a reformed minivan driver, don’t be too hard on the SUV crowd. Maybe they had to drive a 3rd gen caravan at some point in their lives. I can only imagine the horror....

Textured Soy Protein > Quadradeuce 07/06/2017 at 10:27

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I spent a lot of time growing up with my mom’s ’96 Chrysler Town & Country so I’m very familiar with the crappiness of that era. But nowadays they’re generally very nice.

Textured Soy Protein > Eggplant 07/06/2017 at 10:28

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I had a summer job in 2004 selling Toyotas. The second gen Sienna came out that summer for the 2005 model year. The original was definitely low rent compared to the Highlander but the ’05 was much nicer and just as nice as the Highlander.

Textured Soy Protein > J-Blizzle 07/06/2017 at 10:30

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I reacted to “large coastal city” and “here in the suburbs,” which whether you intended it or not, reads like, “you are a city-dwelling snob with your minivan talk.”

haveacarortwoorthree2 > ttyymmnn 07/06/2017 at 10:52

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When my 3 boys were smaller, we went through 3 Odysseys — not because they were crappy, but because I was out of town a lot and had a somewhat irrational desire for my wife to always have a “newer” vehicle so that something wouldn’t strand the family while I was gone. Not only were they great minivans, but they held their value exceptionally well. And the Oddy, at least back then, could beat the Sienna in a drag race. My neighbor still hears about the time I whupped him!

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Quadradeuce 07/06/2017 at 10:58

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I can tell you this... we currently have a 2011 Sienna. I want our old ‘02 Montana back. It was nicer all round. To drive or to ride in, even though it had waaaay less power. Seats were nicer to sit in. Steering had some actual feel. I could drift that thing at will, and no I don’t mean “make it understeer into a tree”. You know the funniest part? It had less scratchy plastic than the Sienna.

DrDDay > Textured Soy Protein 07/06/2017 at 11:02

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I would rather have a wagon with jump seats.

haveacarortwoorthree2 > Mercedes Streeter 07/06/2017 at 11:06

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What about if I just try to buy fast cars? Or cars with lots of HP? Actually, forget I asked. :)

Mercedes Streeter > haveacarortwoorthree2 07/06/2017 at 11:13

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I think that makes you a car enthusiast, power hungry, or having a midlife crisis. xD

Stapleface > Textured Soy Protein 07/06/2017 at 11:21

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I don’t quite understand the irrational minivan hate either. For the job of moving people, few things do it better. Hell, there’s a reason why NYC went to the Nissan NV200. It’s the superior mode to transport stuff.

Sure, perhaps a minivan isn’t the most fun to drive vehicle on the road. Is a Crossover or SUV? If you do a lot of heavy towing or off roading where you need a rugged truck based SUV that’s one thing. But just to have one so you don’t have the stigma of being in a minivan? The hell with that.

I just want someone to come up with their own version of Chrysler’s Stow-n-Go seating. I’m looking at you Toyota, Honda and Hyundai/Kia.

haveacarortwoorthree2 > Mercedes Streeter 07/06/2017 at 11:21

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But I didn’t buy a Vette — doesn’t that allow me to skip the midlife crisis stigma? lol

And I did rent a bright yellow Fiat 500 Abarth on my recent trip to Seattle, so that has to count in my favor too — right? (In other words, the midlife crisis point has occurred to me and perhaps hits too close to home)

Quadradeuce > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 07/06/2017 at 11:34

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Wow. I had a 2001 Montana that I ended up trading in at about 125k miles because I couldn’t keep up with the parts falling off. It literally turned into a hooptie before my eyes. I mean, the engine and transmission would have gone another 100k miles, but it would have looked like this:

Interestingly, my parents had a 1990 Transport. You know, the original dustbuster. That thing went almost 300k miles and the interior was comfortable and never fell apart.

Textured Soy Protein > Stapleface 07/06/2017 at 11:35

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Chrysler re-patented the updated Stow-n-Go seats in 2013 . Not sure what route the competitors would be able to take to do something similar while getting around the patent.

ttyymmnn > haveacarortwoorthree2 07/06/2017 at 11:42

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When my van was in the shop, my service guy gave me a 2017 Odyssey as a loaner. I hated it. It felt clunky, overstuffed, the pillars were huge, visibility was terrible, the infotainment screen was terrible, the seat wasn’t even close to centered on the gauge cluster. He thought I’d come back and want to buy one, but I was happy to be rid of it. I’ll be driving my ‘03 for as long as possible.

Stapleface > Textured Soy Protein 07/06/2017 at 11:45

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There’s a patent on that? I’ll be damned. Well, that sucks. Probably smart of Chrysler to keep that patent active. That’s really the biggest thing that Caravan
Pacifica has going for it

Textured Soy Protein > DrDDay 07/06/2017 at 11:49

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Oh, I love me some wagons, but if you’re using the jump seats, there’s not much of any cargo room left.

I’m one of 3 siblings, and my mom had an ’89 Ford Taurus wagon when my sister was born in 1991. I loved riding in the wayback.

For family vacations, we’d typically drive no more than 3 hours away, and stay there for a week at a time. We always took 2 cars because we needed the back of the wagon for junk instead of someone sitting back there.

She eventually got a ’96 Chrysler Town & Country...and still took 2 cars for those week-long vacations. My mom always over-packs. But there were some shorter trips where we managed to fit everyone and all our crap in the van.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Textured Soy Protein 07/06/2017 at 11:50

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I’m two minds here. I get what you’re saying, and most of it I agree with... but where I step off is the “minivans are nicer to drive” bit. That ranges from totally accurate to total bs. Now if you don’t mind swapping enjoyment for utility, that’s fine. I... don’t like that idea. I can’t stand stuff that makes driving a chore. Let’s brake down some stuff...

My family currently has a 2011 Sienna. I hate that thing with an unbridled passion. It sucks donkey balls to drive. There is NO steering feel whatsoever, yet it is very sharp steering. So all you have is line of sight to adjust by, and it’s very easy to overcorrect. This also makes it a chore to ride in, because it makes the best of the drivers I know waaaay less smooth and makes the worse ones absolutely intolerable. Lurching all over and never feeling like they have it totally under control. Throttle calibration is idiotic. Off the lights, with your foot moving gently and linearly you get NO response at all, then a big power surge... but if you want to accelerate while moving it gives you jack shit unless you floor it. And then, it really has TOO much power for what it is. Cruise sucks. Lets you drop well below your set speed before noticing, at which point it drops several gears and rugs it until you’re well past your set speed. It’s fucking tiring to drive. 3 hours has me wanting a nap. By contrast I can drive my truck for at least 3 times that before considering handing off (with 2 hours sleep the night before at that). 10/10 would rather use a school bus as a minivan.

We used to have a 2002 Montana. Quality-wise, nowhere near the Sienna (though oddly it had less scratchy plastic). No surprise there. No power to speak of, but well calibrated pedal. More comfortable to ride in. Handled nicely. I could drift that thing at will if I wanted. 8/10 would have over a Tahoe, assuming I had no use for the Tahoe’s other capabilities.

Caravan. Fuck no. That is all. 10/10 would drive a bus by remote control from the unwashed bathroom at the back as a minivan instead.

Pacifica? No idea yet.

Odyssey seems to get a better rap handling-wise, never driven one though.

...you get the idea. Depends what you like, and what you’re willing to put up with. If you never do anything you need a truck for and aren’t interested in how your family hauler drives, the minivan is really the way to go. (Please don’t buy a Sienna) Anything else is pure pride getting in the way. For me, I happen to like how trucks drive, so the SUV gets pushed up the ladder more. For someone who prefers car dynamics, they’d be stupid to get something other than the minivan if they didn’t need it. (Please don’t buy a Sienna)

All that being said the minivan options are far from intolerable these days. If I had a choice today I’d probably end up in a Sedona.

* As mentioned I drive a truck and prefer the driving dynamics of trucks, so there is bias here.

** I really wish there was a small truck-based SUV again, along the lines of the Trailblazer... truck feel without being huge. Mmmm.

*** All things considered, I probably wouldn’t get a full size SUV either. I’d get one of these.

Or for preference, one of these.

**** At the end of the day I want a V8 and RWD if I can possibly get it, because it’s magical in whatever it comes wrapped in. Though for preference in a smaller package. DAMMIT I WANT A WAGON WITH A REAR-FACING BENCH

TL;DR just because it’s logical doesn’t mean you should do it. Which is a weird, illogical statement in itself... but it’s true. Try everything. Even if an object makes the most practical sense, if you don’t like driving it it’ll eat you from the inside out. And also just because you don’t like one minivan doesn’t mean another won’t be totally acceptable.

TL;DR for my TL;DR go buy something you like and will work and stop worrying about what others might think of you.

haveacarortwoorthree2 > ttyymmnn 07/06/2017 at 11:52

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I really can’t say anything about the newer ones. I think the last one we had was a 2010 and it was pretty darn good. We started off with a 2001, which was nice as well. We’d probably still have a minivan but my wife just wanted something different after having three minivans in a row.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Quadradeuce 07/06/2017 at 11:54

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Oh, no doubt on that... from a quality standpoint it’s way worse. But I liked driving it. And the engine actually had head gasket issues, usually around 150,000km/100,000mi. we changed it before it went. SOMETHING shit the bed at 286,000km... probably the head gasket. Ditched it. Got the Sienna. I wish we’d fixed the Montana...

ttyymmnn > haveacarortwoorthree2 07/06/2017 at 11:56

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I’d love to hang on to mine until my kids go off to college. Then I won’t have to buy another. I like it just fine, but I want something that is significantly more fun to drive. But that means keeping it for 7 more years, and that may be a tall ask.

DrDDay > Textured Soy Protein 07/06/2017 at 12:16

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Roof racks and knowing how to pack go a long way.

Textured Soy Protein > DrDDay 07/06/2017 at 12:22

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The way my mom packed when I was a kid, we’d need a super-jumbo roof box. Like this XXL size one might do the trick but it’s a little hard to tell from this photoshop of it on a Nissan Rogue.

Quadradeuce > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 07/06/2017 at 12:27

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Mercedes Streeter > haveacarortwoorthree2 07/06/2017 at 12:37

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I think at Fiat 500 Abarth qualifies you as a car enthusiast! :D

1967ers - lover of dead auto marques > Textured Soy Protein 07/06/2017 at 13:34

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We need to seat eight. The Odyssey is a godsend, though I’d like a slightly better jumpseat in the middle of the second row.

Anyone who questions the merit of a built-in vac has no kids.

My only beef with minivans is their fuel economy. There needs to be a hybrid version made available eventually. Beyond that, they’re the most absurdly practical vehicles made.

The towing thing does exist, though. We’d like to camp and we’re pretty limited in what we can tow that will sleep all of us and come in under the weight limit.

Pistol Whipped Cream > Textured Soy Protein 07/06/2017 at 15:28

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I think this was brilliant. I do not love minivans myself. Sometimes we watch our nieces and nephews and we drive their minivan around. Theirs is about 10 years old and it sounds like an old ship with all the creaks and croaks it makes. It’s just so hard to beat the functionality of a minivan though. If I had 3 kids, I would consider getting one. I wouldnt have to keep it forever. Just a few years.

jimz > Eggplant 07/06/2017 at 16:53

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I’ve noticed that on some newer Toyotas. we had a brand new RAV-4 come by my work last week, and the stench from the interior was unbelievable.

jimz > DrDDay 07/06/2017 at 16:56

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I personally think they are piles of dog shit to drive and I would never own one unless I came upon hard times and I needed to be able to sleep comfortably inside my car for a long period of time. Even then I would probably buy something else that didn’t make me want to end my life every time I saw my makeshift home and realized how down on my luck my life has become.

On the bright side, there will always be one more minivan out there for you to buy because I will never be in the market for one.

bragging about what you hate doesn’t impress anyone.

jimz > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 07/06/2017 at 16:58

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I don’t get trashing minivans simply because they’re not performance cars. They’re supposed to be a comfortable way to haul people and things around, not go toe-to-toe with an M3 on the track.

jimz > David Cole 07/06/2017 at 16:59

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Hence “sport” utility vehicles.

most of them have no “sport” whatsoever.

jimz > Svend 07/06/2017 at 17:00

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So, a BMW C-Max?

Svend > jimz 07/06/2017 at 17:25

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C-Max or Grand C-Max.

jimz > Svend 07/06/2017 at 17:36

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I keep forgetting about the Grand, we don’t get it here.

DrDDay > jimz 07/06/2017 at 18:28

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Good

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > jimz 07/06/2017 at 19:03

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Neither do I, that’s not what they’re for. But that doesn’t mean they can’t be fun, or at least not soul-sucking to drive. I know that for a fact. If you can live with soul-sucking in the name of efficient practicality, good on you. Buy any minivan. But far better to try all the offerings first, you’ll be able to find one that isn’t terribly opposed to your tastes. They exist.

Personally, like I said, I can’t stand to drive something that isn’t at least slightly interesting to drive. So if I find a minivan that suits me, well and good... but if I can’t, the people who would say “you should have bought a minivan instead, it does all you need” can suck it. They didn’t, or I’d be driving one. Just because it’s an intangible doesn’t make it invalid.

Honestly what I’m looking for in any vehicle is a combination of not being completely terrible, SOME ability to corner (you know what I drive, so how much ability is basically “don’t understeer into a tree”) and character. Any vehicle. Minivan, wagon, truck, family sedan, hatchback you name it. The Montana met those. The Sienna did not.

On the other hand, if you’re avoiding a certain type of vehicle strictly for pride reasons... well... I can’t tell you how to live your life, but you’re doing your car-buying wrong.

DrDDay > Textured Soy Protein 07/08/2017 at 16:53

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!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Should have started this whole thing with that statement. It would have made everything a whole lot easier.